I quit Instagram last November, but I’m tempted to go back just to do war in the comments on your behalf. Thank you for your work. I love the Pod and I’m so grateful to have your voice in the world, and in my headphones.
I fell out where you did on Ballerina Farm. As someone who really only knows about her through the anti-trad life substacks I consume, my first thought upon reading the Times article was, this is performative. The evidence lies not only in the pageant queen turned ballerina turned influencer experience, but Mormon women are raised to be performers. Put on a happy, perfectly manicured face while domestic laboring their lives away and shunning their own ambition for the sake of their eternal families. I have empathy for her because this is the life she was bred for and indoctrinated into and if we could get women to stop legitimizing the damage that Christianity does to women’s progress and well being we wouldn’t have to have these conversations.
As far as our future president, the “she’s not qualified” argument fills me fire breathing, car flipping rage. She has more political experience than the four presidents previous to Biden. Take her record as prosecutor, DA, AG, Senator, VP and compare it to the weirdos on the GOP ticket…one bought himself a nom with money he inherited from a rich daddy and shady business dealings and his VP who worked for a billionaire that then funded his senate campaign for an office in which he has spent 18 months. Are the people ok??? What are they taking about!??
I was born and raised Mormon (left about a decade ago at 25) and I appreciate you bringing that into the conversation. Hannah has chosen her life (whatever agency she actually has lends more to philosophy than anything else- one of Mormonism’s main features is undue influence by way of rigid cultural expectations). I think what some folks may fail to realize is that the Ballerina Farm INC. is a direct result of Mormonism. In the Mormon temple (I was married in one 😵💫), you literally promise to obey your husband and he will obey god. Your husband is the intercessor between the woman and god, so in theory I had no real direct access to god lol). That indoctrination is really powerful (it took me a decade of therapy to deconstruct my faith and I am pleased to report that I’m happy little feminist, probably atheist? now. Still married to my wonderful parter who deconstructed with me, giving up his “priesthood power” lol along the way).
Anyways, I don’t think it can be understated that the pinnacle of Mormonism, the one-true-church™️(to Mormons) is the temple- getting married there- because as a woman, you can’t get into heaven without your husband. Literally, you can’t be with your kids or family if your husband doesn’t “pull you through the veil” into god’s presence. I’m not saying that most Mormon women think about this consciously on the regular, but the concept is deeply imbedded in our psyche. There’s also the fear of being “replaced” by a more “obedient” woman/women, as men are STILL allowed to be sealed (Mormon marriage) to more than one woman if their first (or second or third, etc) wife has died. The practice of “eternal polygamy” is traumatic for many women- my still-Mormon friends included. The current leader of the Mormon church is “sealed” to at least two women. Mainstream Mormons absolutely practice polygamy today- not just the FLDS sect, but regular, “Mitt Romney” Mormons.
The idea that you NEED your husband to be able to be with your children and family in heaven, that he could marry someone else and be with them in heaven, too, and that you cannot access fully god without him- this indoctrination is so deep in Mormon women that I’m 0% surprised by the outcome of the Times piece. There is no such thing as legitimate feminism in the Mormon church (they historically excommunicate women who are) and the benevolent patriarchy, the pedestalization of women as creators of life, this is what Hannah contends with. I think the piece was well done, but without the full cultural context, it’s hard to understand the nuances of why she “chose” this life. Why she gives so much deference to Daniel, why it reads kind of like Stockholm Syndrome…
As a former Mormon with many, many dear friends and most of my family still Mormon, and as an actual sociologist (kind of ironic, right?), Mormonism has many, many cult-like qualities (see the B.I.T.E. Model). It’s so subtle. It’s complex and nuanced.
So the Times article, to me, was more like the Mormonism of it all. And the “free will doesn’t really exist” of it all. There are incredible Mormon-adjacent women writing and creating content about these topics- Meg Conley, Celeste Davis, Rosie Card, Samantha Shelley, Haley Rawle, Brittney Hartley and many more. Mormon women are in the midst of another feminist reckoning (the feminist, intellectuals and queer folks get excommunicated every decade or so when they ruffle too many feathers in the Mormon community, so we have to keep starting over). Did you know the quote, “well behaved women seldom make history” is from a Mormon, feminist, intellectual? Laurel Thatcher Ulrich was OG Brat.
And Katie, your work is phenomenal and I loved this article- and all your others- so much. Keep doing what you’re doing- you’ve truly changed my life for the better (shocking, but in my own Mormon experience, financial literacy, much less financial independence, wasn’t for silly girls). Proud to say I’ve deconstructed that idea, too. Much love 💕
"You can’t be with your kids or family if your husband doesn’t “pull you through the veil” into god’s presence. I’m not saying that most Mormon women think about this consciously on the regular, but the concept is deeply imbedded in our psyche." DAMN! It's so much worse than I even knew, and I figured it was pretty damn bad after reading some of the thinkpieces from the women you've cited.
I also LOL'd at "Laurel Thatcher Ulrich was OG Brat." Incredible. Thank you so much for leaving this thoughtful and expansive comment, Madison.
I'm a little confused at the pushback for this being too political from ostensibly regular readers. It's not as if your other posts are devoid of some pretty liberal leaning viewpoints. It's not really a mystery where you start on many public policy points and how those directly relate to money.
Additionally, I found Meg Conley's piece on the ballerina farms especially insightful and would recommend it if you've not read it. I fall down on your side that she has agency, but a limited agency. All her social systems were built to steer her in this direction and so from an outside perspective it's easy to see where she could have made a different choice, but as Meg states in her piece, when you're given ten pieces of candy and told one is good and the other nine are poisonous and if you choose those your whole family will also be condemned do you really have agency even if you did make the decision ultimately?
Always love your pieces. You have been in fire these past few months!!!
I completely agree with you and I'm really struggling to reach a conclusive POV on women's agency within those contexts. W/r/t the Meg Conley recommendation, did she write something new since the profile came out? If so, I've missed it!
I might be conflating her general LDS pieces, the AHP (Anne Helen Peterson) one, and yours that you wrote tbh (whoopsie). I know she has written something about this recently that has been rattling in my brain. I'm not sure if it was specifically after this release come to think of it. As an aside, I am really loving this new newsletter and also greatly appreciated the inclusion of your wildly adorable cat. A true superstar if ever there was one.
Count me among your devoted fans happily observing your growing commitment to threading the needle between politics, patriarchy, and personal finance. Grateful to you using your platform in this way!
Wow. I finished reading this in a yelling pissed off voice in my head. Keep these coming. I hope you're able to reach more people who need to hear these messages.
This is the most on-point, well-thought-out piece about Ballerina Farm and the frustration of watching women argue against themselves (why? WHY?) that I have seen thus far. Thank you for contributing!
Those who think politics and finances are not related clearly haven't heard the chants from the streets for 50+ years ...THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL! ... Or they have experienced the privilege of policies aligning to their beliefs so they haven't had to reconcile that they are related.
Way to keep going and speaking up despite commenters irrational worldviews.
So is the farm called Ballerina Farm because the goal is literally to raise ballerinas? And for her to vicariously fully her life goals thru her children?
So well written! Sorry you had to deal with the Instagram trolls - it blows my mind when people don't want others to "be political"... as if just because somebody has a platform/following, they should abandon sharing their beliefs and advocating on behalf of them? I really do find myself puzzled by others logic at times...hahaha
I’ll also note that only left-leaning creators are scolded for being political; Ramsey’s entire enterprise is basically outwardly Christian and conservative but you don’t hear these folks bitching that he’s being political lmao
I appreciate that you call attention to the things that we really all should be paying attention to and thinking about more critically. And you recognize that there is nuance to every scenario.
It’s like one of your recent podcast episodes where you mentioned that it would be great if we were living in [this future utopia world] but we aren’t there yet, so we have to make decisions based on the current circumstances.
Thank you for this comment, and thank you for doing the hard work of holding all personal finance creators' feet to the fire for the dodge that is feigning political neutrality in this work
I'm a week late to the party but loved your IG stories related to this piece as well. I'm part of the crowd with a Mormon background and over the years have had many conversations with other Mormon and Mormon adjacent women about choice and supporting other women's choices (even if we think they are wrong). Reminding the world that "Feminism is about equality" (not choice) is spot-on in resolving these conversations, or rather redirecting them to where the true issues lie. It reminded me of Kate Kelly's assertion that equality is not a feeling, equality is measurable. If we're hyper-focused on policing choices and making sure women are making informed decisions and feeling good about those choices, we're missing the bigger picture. Thanks for weaving together these important topics in a smart and insightful way.
I quit Instagram last November, but I’m tempted to go back just to do war in the comments on your behalf. Thank you for your work. I love the Pod and I’m so grateful to have your voice in the world, and in my headphones.
I am so moved by your impulse to jump back into the radioactive fray on my behalf. 😂
I fell out where you did on Ballerina Farm. As someone who really only knows about her through the anti-trad life substacks I consume, my first thought upon reading the Times article was, this is performative. The evidence lies not only in the pageant queen turned ballerina turned influencer experience, but Mormon women are raised to be performers. Put on a happy, perfectly manicured face while domestic laboring their lives away and shunning their own ambition for the sake of their eternal families. I have empathy for her because this is the life she was bred for and indoctrinated into and if we could get women to stop legitimizing the damage that Christianity does to women’s progress and well being we wouldn’t have to have these conversations.
As far as our future president, the “she’s not qualified” argument fills me fire breathing, car flipping rage. She has more political experience than the four presidents previous to Biden. Take her record as prosecutor, DA, AG, Senator, VP and compare it to the weirdos on the GOP ticket…one bought himself a nom with money he inherited from a rich daddy and shady business dealings and his VP who worked for a billionaire that then funded his senate campaign for an office in which he has spent 18 months. Are the people ok??? What are they taking about!??
"Fire-breathing, car-flipping rage" is exactly how I felt for about 48 hours after seeing the comments roll in and this solidarity is FELT, I tell you
I was born and raised Mormon (left about a decade ago at 25) and I appreciate you bringing that into the conversation. Hannah has chosen her life (whatever agency she actually has lends more to philosophy than anything else- one of Mormonism’s main features is undue influence by way of rigid cultural expectations). I think what some folks may fail to realize is that the Ballerina Farm INC. is a direct result of Mormonism. In the Mormon temple (I was married in one 😵💫), you literally promise to obey your husband and he will obey god. Your husband is the intercessor between the woman and god, so in theory I had no real direct access to god lol). That indoctrination is really powerful (it took me a decade of therapy to deconstruct my faith and I am pleased to report that I’m happy little feminist, probably atheist? now. Still married to my wonderful parter who deconstructed with me, giving up his “priesthood power” lol along the way).
Anyways, I don’t think it can be understated that the pinnacle of Mormonism, the one-true-church™️(to Mormons) is the temple- getting married there- because as a woman, you can’t get into heaven without your husband. Literally, you can’t be with your kids or family if your husband doesn’t “pull you through the veil” into god’s presence. I’m not saying that most Mormon women think about this consciously on the regular, but the concept is deeply imbedded in our psyche. There’s also the fear of being “replaced” by a more “obedient” woman/women, as men are STILL allowed to be sealed (Mormon marriage) to more than one woman if their first (or second or third, etc) wife has died. The practice of “eternal polygamy” is traumatic for many women- my still-Mormon friends included. The current leader of the Mormon church is “sealed” to at least two women. Mainstream Mormons absolutely practice polygamy today- not just the FLDS sect, but regular, “Mitt Romney” Mormons.
The idea that you NEED your husband to be able to be with your children and family in heaven, that he could marry someone else and be with them in heaven, too, and that you cannot access fully god without him- this indoctrination is so deep in Mormon women that I’m 0% surprised by the outcome of the Times piece. There is no such thing as legitimate feminism in the Mormon church (they historically excommunicate women who are) and the benevolent patriarchy, the pedestalization of women as creators of life, this is what Hannah contends with. I think the piece was well done, but without the full cultural context, it’s hard to understand the nuances of why she “chose” this life. Why she gives so much deference to Daniel, why it reads kind of like Stockholm Syndrome…
As a former Mormon with many, many dear friends and most of my family still Mormon, and as an actual sociologist (kind of ironic, right?), Mormonism has many, many cult-like qualities (see the B.I.T.E. Model). It’s so subtle. It’s complex and nuanced.
So the Times article, to me, was more like the Mormonism of it all. And the “free will doesn’t really exist” of it all. There are incredible Mormon-adjacent women writing and creating content about these topics- Meg Conley, Celeste Davis, Rosie Card, Samantha Shelley, Haley Rawle, Brittney Hartley and many more. Mormon women are in the midst of another feminist reckoning (the feminist, intellectuals and queer folks get excommunicated every decade or so when they ruffle too many feathers in the Mormon community, so we have to keep starting over). Did you know the quote, “well behaved women seldom make history” is from a Mormon, feminist, intellectual? Laurel Thatcher Ulrich was OG Brat.
And Katie, your work is phenomenal and I loved this article- and all your others- so much. Keep doing what you’re doing- you’ve truly changed my life for the better (shocking, but in my own Mormon experience, financial literacy, much less financial independence, wasn’t for silly girls). Proud to say I’ve deconstructed that idea, too. Much love 💕
"You can’t be with your kids or family if your husband doesn’t “pull you through the veil” into god’s presence. I’m not saying that most Mormon women think about this consciously on the regular, but the concept is deeply imbedded in our psyche." DAMN! It's so much worse than I even knew, and I figured it was pretty damn bad after reading some of the thinkpieces from the women you've cited.
I also LOL'd at "Laurel Thatcher Ulrich was OG Brat." Incredible. Thank you so much for leaving this thoughtful and expansive comment, Madison.
I'm a little confused at the pushback for this being too political from ostensibly regular readers. It's not as if your other posts are devoid of some pretty liberal leaning viewpoints. It's not really a mystery where you start on many public policy points and how those directly relate to money.
Additionally, I found Meg Conley's piece on the ballerina farms especially insightful and would recommend it if you've not read it. I fall down on your side that she has agency, but a limited agency. All her social systems were built to steer her in this direction and so from an outside perspective it's easy to see where she could have made a different choice, but as Meg states in her piece, when you're given ten pieces of candy and told one is good and the other nine are poisonous and if you choose those your whole family will also be condemned do you really have agency even if you did make the decision ultimately?
Always love your pieces. You have been in fire these past few months!!!
I completely agree with you and I'm really struggling to reach a conclusive POV on women's agency within those contexts. W/r/t the Meg Conley recommendation, did she write something new since the profile came out? If so, I've missed it!
I might be conflating her general LDS pieces, the AHP (Anne Helen Peterson) one, and yours that you wrote tbh (whoopsie). I know she has written something about this recently that has been rattling in my brain. I'm not sure if it was specifically after this release come to think of it. As an aside, I am really loving this new newsletter and also greatly appreciated the inclusion of your wildly adorable cat. A true superstar if ever there was one.
Count me among your devoted fans happily observing your growing commitment to threading the needle between politics, patriarchy, and personal finance. Grateful to you using your platform in this way!
WHEW, Eira! You really made my Monday. Thank you for taking the time to leave this comment!
Wow. I finished reading this in a yelling pissed off voice in my head. Keep these coming. I hope you're able to reach more people who need to hear these messages.
Thank you, Nathan. 🫶🏼
This is the most on-point, well-thought-out piece about Ballerina Farm and the frustration of watching women argue against themselves (why? WHY?) that I have seen thus far. Thank you for contributing!
Ugh, thanks, Laura! Makes me feel like my stewing in blind rage for days produced something semi-coherent on the other side
Keep writing and sharing your thoughts! I love everything here. On.point. (deliberate ballerina reference lol)
Pun received & appreciated
Those who think politics and finances are not related clearly haven't heard the chants from the streets for 50+ years ...THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL! ... Or they have experienced the privilege of policies aligning to their beliefs so they haven't had to reconcile that they are related.
Ding ding ding. It’s very easy to perceive yourself as apolitical when the status quo is explicitly designed to benefit you lmao
Way to keep going and speaking up despite commenters irrational worldviews.
So is the farm called Ballerina Farm because the goal is literally to raise ballerinas? And for her to vicariously fully her life goals thru her children?
I assume the goal is to raise little mothers and men if I’m being frank, and the name is a nod to the dream she gave up to do it
They write the comments but don't seem to comprehend what any of it means, I also find it so confusing. Great piece thank you for sharing
So well written! Sorry you had to deal with the Instagram trolls - it blows my mind when people don't want others to "be political"... as if just because somebody has a platform/following, they should abandon sharing their beliefs and advocating on behalf of them? I really do find myself puzzled by others logic at times...hahaha
Thanks for sharing, Katie!
I’ll also note that only left-leaning creators are scolded for being political; Ramsey’s entire enterprise is basically outwardly Christian and conservative but you don’t hear these folks bitching that he’s being political lmao
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Katie. 👏🏻👏🏻
I appreciate that you call attention to the things that we really all should be paying attention to and thinking about more critically. And you recognize that there is nuance to every scenario.
It’s like one of your recent podcast episodes where you mentioned that it would be great if we were living in [this future utopia world] but we aren’t there yet, so we have to make decisions based on the current circumstances.
Thank you so much, Lisa, for reading AND listening! I'm sure you're tired of my voice. Haha
This is perfect. No notes.
Thank you for this comment, and thank you for doing the hard work of holding all personal finance creators' feet to the fire for the dodge that is feigning political neutrality in this work
Just discovered your stack. Totally agree with your take on Hannah, and great piece
I'm a week late to the party but loved your IG stories related to this piece as well. I'm part of the crowd with a Mormon background and over the years have had many conversations with other Mormon and Mormon adjacent women about choice and supporting other women's choices (even if we think they are wrong). Reminding the world that "Feminism is about equality" (not choice) is spot-on in resolving these conversations, or rather redirecting them to where the true issues lie. It reminded me of Kate Kelly's assertion that equality is not a feeling, equality is measurable. If we're hyper-focused on policing choices and making sure women are making informed decisions and feeling good about those choices, we're missing the bigger picture. Thanks for weaving together these important topics in a smart and insightful way.